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The Burden of Proof Episode 14 CINA Cases: Understanding the Basics

In our latest installment of The Burden of Proof: a JC Law Podcast, our hosts Peter Crawford Esq. and Tyler Lewis are joined by JC Law Supervising Attorney, Hunter Gallagher Esq. to discuss CINA cases, from the legal definition to the full process and more!

CINA, or Child in Need of Assistance, cases are crucial yet complex, often involving numerous legal intricacies and emotional challenges. In this episode, Hunter Gallagher, Esq. breaks down the entire process, offering a clear and concise guide for those navigating these difficult waters. We begin by defining CINA and dive into how these cases start. Hunter provides insight into the beginning of the process, and what happens when abuse is first reported. He details the role of CPS in these cases, and what you should do if you find yourself in this situation.

Next, we take a deep dive into the full process from start to finish. From the first step when the abuse was reported to each of the hearings you will need to attend, and the possible outcomes of these cases.

This episode is a must-listen for anyone dealing with CINA cases or seeking to understand the child welfare system in Maryland. Tune in to gain valuable knowledge and insights from a seasoned attorney.

Listen now on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and YouTube.

Remember; at JC Law, we aren’t just your lawyer. We’re your legal ally.

Episode Transcript:

Tyler: Welcome back to another episode of The Burden of Proof. I’m your host, Tyler Lewis. And as always, I’m joined by cohost Peter Crawford. Peter, how are we doing?

Peter: Good, Tyler. How are you?

Tyler: Good. Good. Just another day, you know. So, what are we diving into today?

Peter: Well, today, we’re talking about cine cases, which stands for children in need of assistance. And in order to discuss this topic, I brought in one of the experts, Hunter Gallagher, who deals with a lot of these cases on a weekly basis, who’s been dealing with, a lot in the last two, three years of practicing. Right? Yeah.

Hunter: Not well, I would say just for the record too, ethically, I’m not an expert, but it is something that I specialize in. I would say that that’s fair. Yes. Yeah.

Hunter: Otherwise, we’ll be held to a higher standard of care under the under the ethical rules. Yeah. So don’t so don’t try to please me and hang out there. Okay?Anyway, yeah. So we’re talking Cina, and, yeah. We’re whatever you wanna talk about.

Peter: Alright. Well, let’s just talk about first what is CINA Like I said, Senna is a child in need of assistance. How do these cases begin?

Hunter: So these cases and let me just say, first of all, these cases, they’re very serious cases. They began incredibly suddenly. Usually, what happens is, child protective services gets involved with a family for one reason or another. There could be a referral. A child could have gone to an emergency room visit. The parents could have taken a child there for, you know, a a checkup or for something that they weren’t sure what was wrong or maybe the child had an accident. You know? So the child will, come to the attention of child protective services for one reason or another because, again, parents will take children when they’re being responsive or helpful to the children’s needs or, because, somebody reports, either the family or something that they suspect might be abuse or something that’s concerning.

Peter: And so, mandatory reporters are what? Teachers, therapists, certain certain other people who have an ethical have an obligation to actually report these crimes.

Hunter: Right? Correct. Health professionals. And and CINA well, senate is technically if a child has found a need of assistance and you are the person to have caused the child being in need of assistance, it is a crime. But, typically, child protective services looks at this from a perspective of we’re trying to help the family and the child. Does it always come across like that? Does it always feel like that? Certainly not. That’s that’s a that’s a totally different thing we can get into.

Peter: So, I mean, what do you mean they’re trying to help the family? Because it’s my understanding that the CINA case is, obviously, it’s one party against the other party. So, I mean, is there a way to work out an agreement between the parties that it comes to the best interest of the child and the family, or is it is more adversarial between the two parties?

Hunter: It really depends on what the client’s goal is. So for private practice for us, generally, we represent parents. Okay? Ethically speaking, each, parent gets their own attorney. Alright? If they can’t afford an attorney because this is so important, it deals with custody of their children and underlying events that often are criminal. Okay? For example, child abuse, child neglect. You, you know, you, in some cases, wanna work with child protective services. In other cases, you know, they are telling a story that the parent or the client thinks is untrue, thinks was, poorly reported, thought that was or, arose from what they perceive as and sometimes will maybe, an incorrect medical diagnosis Mhmm. And that, gets this whole process started.

Peter: So somebody reports something Mhmm. And then there’s a petition file. Yep. And then a safety plan is put in place.

Hunter: So the safety plan, yes and no. A safety plan is a tool that child protective services uses, and you have to understand that. When you’re dealing with child protective services, there’s the stuff that happens outside of court, and then there’s the stuff that happens in court. Mhmm. And there are an entire range of responses that child protective services can do with a family that simply stay at the level of, hey. We saw something concerning. we’d like to enter into an informal agreement, us, the social workers, and you, the parent, parents, guardians, okay, with respect to how we want you to, supervise, take care of your child. I mean, it might range from something like, you know, you won’t let your child’s parent other parent around the children unsupervised. Right? Or you won’t use physical discipline with the children, or you agree that the child is going to to show up to these following appointments. Mhmm. Alright? And they’ll come to that understanding. And if everybody can get along, then they might enter into a long term, long term relationship with CPS that’s informal, that stays out of court where, where CPS envisions themselves again. Whether that’s in fact what they’re doing or not is a different discussion, but envision themselves as providing additional services. And and let me just talk about what the definition of CINA actually is. So it it does stand for child need assistance, but I wanna do that just to frame it because it’ll help me discuss, how these cases unfold and what it means. So in order for, a child need assistance case to be ultimately successful, and I’ll talk about the procedure generally because I think that’s helpful, and then let’s we can watch into some of the other stuff and be you know, guide me around. But Yeah. Yeah. What I what I like to tell my people when they’re when they’re coming in there and saying, well, I have this thing called CINA, child in need of assistance. What in the world is going on? I tell them a couple of things. I mean, one, it means that there’s a really intense court process that’s starting. It means that CPS believes that the children are in danger or that the the children need a lot of extra help that you’re not able to provide them for, sometimes no fault of your own. Okay? And so what they’ve done is initiated a court process that allows them to either remove the children alright, the first alright, the first thing they do is they file an emergency petition, which happens they’ll file a petition, and the next day courts open, we’re in court. Okay? Clients need to understand that the, burden of persuasion is reasonable grounds. And so, effectively, you’re gonna go to court. You’re gonna lose your children. They’re going to be removed into the temporary care and custody of someone else. Okay? Well, into the hands of CPS who will then place them with, statutorily. It has to be with the family member first, or if not, then a foster care situation temporarily. Within thirty days, and it depends on what county you’re in because they handle them differently. There’s different availability, so on and so on. But within thirty days, the presumption is that you have an actual hearing. Okay? And that hearing is what we call the adjudication. It’s like the trial. Okay. And at that trial, essentially, CPS has to prove that the child is in need of assistance.

And so what does that mean? That the child has been abused, neglected, or has some kind of mental disability. Alright? And it’s a two pronged part, so it’s one of those three. Plus, the parent is unwilling or unable to provide for the ordinary care comfort and help of the child. Okay? Mhmm. And and I I wanted to talk about that definition because, there are cases in which children are born to parents who love their children immensely, but those children might have a mental disability. And the parents, for example, for economic reasons, for the fact that, maybe they have other children, right, that they can’t provide the for the care of the children. And so in other words, you can go through this in a process where it really is a you need help. Let us help you. Right? Your kid is hard to handle for one reason or another. It’s not your fault, and but we wanna provide services for you. And in that sense, it can be really non combative. In other instances, I mean, you know, theoretically, take a take a, take a hypothetical where a doctor misdiagnoses a bone break in a child and says it’s definitely abuse or a social worker says it’s definitely abuse or a nurse is definitely abuse, and another doctor may not think so. And so they take that story, They run with it. Now you’re in an adversarial process where you go, you know, hypothetically, my kid fell off the slide, twisted his leg in a weird way, and it resulted in a spiral fracture, which is a telltale sign typically of abuse, but also can result from the way in which his ankle got caught and he fell off the slide. Right? Mhmm. And so now you’re in a situation where all of your kids are getting pulled from their home. Mhmm. Right? And you didn’t do anything wrong, and it was an accident, but CPS doesn’t think so. And that totally changes the flavor.

Tyler: So it’s a lot of it it comes down to a lot of he said, she said, and then you kinda having to prove that?

Hunter: I I mean, I mean, sometimes. And, obviously, just for the just for the record too, I’m I’m only using hypotheticals. Mhmm. Obviously, I can’t talk about anything that relates to any of my clients at all, in some cases, and you wouldn’t be able to find out about it. So these these are hypotheticals, and they in no way represent real people. Okay? Just just so I’m clear about that. It depends on what kind of case you’re dealing with. But usually because it’s you’re dealing with neglect and abuse, abuse or mental health issues, you pretty much always have expert witnesses. You have to have medical evaluations. You have to have psychological evaluations. You have people who are qual I mean, frankly, I mean, social workers under, Maryland law are actually qualified to die depending on their certification. They’re qualified to diagnose mental health issues. Okay? So it’s not so much a I heard this or I thought this. I mean, the social workers will hear and say thing things. Mhmm. But ultimately, there is always a very always? Can I say that? I don’t like saying always. That’s not true. But I’ll say, ninety-nine percent of the time, there is pretty much always a huge record that deals with these, instances. Every time a social worker goes out to somebody’s house, okay, they write a report afterwards. Every time they talk with, an investigator, they write a report afterwards, which brings it to another point. You know, when you’re dealing with abuse and neglect because they also are crimes, you know, you might be the subject of a criminal investigation at the same time and may or may not be charged criminally for this. First degree assault, first degree child abuse, okay, for something that might have been an accident, for example. Woah. Now you’re looking at, you know, jail time, alright, and bail reviews and everything else, plus now all of a sudden your kids are away and you can’t find work. I mean, it’s it gets very serious incredibly fast. Mhmm. Wow.

Peter: Also, one thing I’ve said is we’re seeing a comparison between the criminal and and SINNA is your right to attorney. Under the statute, you do have a right to attorney. If you can’t afford attorney, you got you have one providing for you Mhmm.Which is not like most other civil cases. Correct. I guess this is also not a normal civil case. Like, you said, a very serious allegations here of abusing the child. Mhmm. But it is interesting that under the statute, there are those two comparisons.

Hunter: Yeah. I mean, yep. It’s it’s nice that you do get an attorney and you need one. Mhmm. I mean, you really do.

Peter: Have you seen anybody go pro se through this? Oh, sure. Yeah.

Tyler: I can’t imagine going through that.

Hunter: I mean, yes. You have the option so the parents will have attorneys provide for them if they can afford it for the office of the book of the public defender. You know, the children get their own attorneys. Okay? And then the CPS workers also have their own attorneys, Okay? Which is usually county attorney or or somebody who works in the county attorney’s office. And, parents can opt to not have counsel.

Peter: Right. Don’t recommend it.

Hunter: Absolutely absolutely not. Absolutely not. When you go to court, I mean, you you know, it’s there are a lot of really complex trial skills that you need in these cases. Mhmm. Because if you find yourself in a situation where child protective services is telling you a story that you think is untrue and you don’t believe that relates to child abuse, the only way they’re gonna see the light is if you show it to them in court. And the only way that, like I said, they’ll see the light is is through an effective cross examination that you took a lot of time prepare. Mhmm. And you do that through your own experts. You do that through reading all of their notes. You know, in certain cases, you know, you can, and I have, deposed the social workers, before a court. So, I mean, there’s, you know, there’s a lot to do in these cases. And because you’re dealing with the removal of children, but, from somebody’s home, potentially, you know, a lot of work happens on these cases within the first month, month and a half. Yeah.

Peter: I mean, it’s a very specific skill to to attorneys too. I mean, the ability to tell a story in court is very different than just talking to your buddy. Yeah. It’s very different than just telling, hey. Last weekend, this happened. Sure. On a golf course Sure. I shot a one zero two, you know, to tear it like it’s a little bit different than just on a normal sort. It’s a skill that has to be acquired through time and practice.

Hunter: I I would agree. And and and think about it from this perspective. You know? One of my a colleague of mine has been practicing for decades. He told me when he was in law school, I wanted to tell if there was practice. Mhmm. He did only does, felony work, most mostly murders. Mostly murder trials. He he said, when I was in law school, the professors told us only ten percent of you graduating will be trial attorneys. Okay? Among the trial attorneys, only ten percent of you will be good ones. Okay? Now among the good trial attorneys, well, I’ll just say among the trial attorneys, among the good good ones, it is also a special skill set to be able to cross examine children. And you it’s a whole another ballgame. And why would in the world would you ever do something like that? Well, CINA cases can be the two year old who had an accident that may or may not look like abuse. Right? It can also be the twelve year old, Okay? Or the fourteen year old or the sixteen year old who is saying, mom or dad hit me. Mhmm. Alright? Or, you know, I fell off a slide or whatever it happens to be. And now the only way that, you are going to, have an opportunity for justice is by having that child brought into court and having them questioned about the alleged abuse. Right. Because, unfortunately, children lie, and they make things up for one reason or another.

Tyler: And that’s a lot of pressure for a kid that’s ten or twelve and going through this. Yeah. I mean, they’re are there if they aren’t capable of kind of speaking for themselves on the stand, are there people that speak on their behalf?

Hunter:  No. I mean, that kind of So so this in this particular setting, in certain cases, you you want to call the child to the stand. If I represent a parent Mhmm. And the child for one reason or another says, I don’t wanna be in your household anymore. I like it down the street. I’d rather be in foster care for whatever reason reason or another. And you would say, why in the world would you would any child ever think something like that when you have your parents? Right? But there there are circumstances in which that happens. Absolutely. And, you know, the child will be called to the stand, and I will spend the better part of a day or more. I’ll call it talking with the child, but cross examining that child relative to the story. Because, ultimately, if, if the child is the the chief witness to the abuse Mhmm. And that child story doesn’t make sense after you’re able to present a whole bunch of other, I’ll just call it the fuller picture, then you win the day based on that. And you do the same thing with the social workers.

Peter: So it’s something you gotta think out too. I mean, cross examining a child is a lot different than cross examining somebody else. Sure. Just the way you do it Sure. The questions you ask. Mhmm. Whether or not you you show anger, whether or not you just are understanding, whether or not you back them in the corner, whether you lead them down this path in order to get to this path. Whatever it is, it has to be thought out, and it is much, much different than I will say from cross examine in the boat. Sure.

Hunter: Absolutely. Depends on the child, the age of the child, what you wanna elicit from the child, your relationship, how the child responds to you. Somebody who’s skilled in court, adopts different personalities depending on the need. Mhmm. And that depends on your witness and what you wanna listen from them also.

Peter: I know I’ve seen defense attorneys be prosecutor’s witness best friend for a few minutes.

Hunter: Sure.

Peter: And then, you know, they turn on like that.And they they get in the information that they want, what they need, and then they use that in order to craft their story in their case. Interesting.

Tyler: So let’s kinda dive back into the process a little bit. I think you touched on the adjudicary hearing. Adjudicating. Yeah.

Hunter: Yeah. They called the adjudication. Adjudication. Adjudication. Yeah.

Tyler: So then kind of, walk us through what kind of happens there and what happens next.

Hunter: So if you go by way of adjudication, and usually when somebody calls me, right, it’s because that’s the way we’re going. It’s because CPS is doing something. I really have a problem with it. Right? Please leave me alone. Okay? Please get out of my family. What happens so you have the adjudication, and the judge then is going to decide whether or not the allegations child protective services made will be sustained or not, which is a fancy way of saying me as the judge. Child protective services said that the kid is this year this this, this many years old and has this parents. And as a judge, I’m gonna sustain those. So I found based on the testimony, right, that this is the child of first parent one and parent two. And they’ll go down the entire list that also involves their story of abuse, neglect, or a mental disability. And then the judge will say, I sustain or I don’t sustain.I mean, I’m I’m making a determination of fact. And then the judge will say, okay. I determine now that the child is in fact in need of assistance. So those two things Mhmm.Going back to the beginning. Right? Abuse, neglected, mental disability delay, and the other thing the parent can’t help. And so sometimes the story you you wanna talk about is the child has these issues, right Mhmm. For no fault of anybody, but look how responsive and amazing these parents are. Mhmm. Right? Yeah. CPS might disagree with how they’re raising them, but what they’re doing is totally appropriate or they’re totally allowed to do it. Right? Whatever. Anyway, so,

Peter: that’s why we have this process to provide a different perspective. Of course. Obviously, CPS doesn’t get it right all the time. Workers don’t get it wrong right all the time.

Hunter: Yes. And and what happens if you wanna raise your child in a way that’s not, you know, I would just say normal for society, whatever that means. You know?

Tyler: Well, it’s similar to when we were talking about custody is that they these judges, you come in and they meet you for what, an hour or two and you’re supposed to prove your point and tell that story.So it it kind of comes back to it’s crazy that you’re gonna prove all that in the same time.

Hunter: And you and you want somebody there with you because, when I’m listening to people, I go, this is really important. This is a meeting of importance. This is not legally relevant, but thank you for telling me. And clients can’t always discern what’s important and not important, frankly. And I’ll tell you, things that they want you to say, may end up hurting them. Okay? Because what you say will be misinterpreted because, I mean, the caricature of well, I won’t say that.Yeah. there’s a nice visual. It goes like this. Okay? This is this is your case. Right? My client. This is your case. Okay? This is everything that I as your attorney, okay, I’ve been able to understand from you talking to me.Alright? This is everything I’m able to gather in court.K? This is everything that the judge heard me say when I got in court. This is everything that the judge retained when they made their order. Okay? Right. So you need somebody who I mean, it talks about storytelling. You need somebody who knows the big points that go to the important issues. Mhmm.

Tyler: Get to the facts right through them and make sure they’re clearly stated.

Hunter: Sure. And and I’ll let me say, we you talk about process. So the child is needed assistance or not, then you immediately proceed to what’s called the disposition hearing. It’s the, okay. I’ve determined that your child’s need assistance usually happens the same day in the court. Yes. Unless the judge, for some reason, wants to defer, and there are a whole bunch of reasons why that can happen. Okay? For example, I need more information or I need to know whether I have you know, the people who have been watching the child can actually watch the child for longer than, you know, another week.Right? Something like this. Mhmm. And then you go to this disposition hearing and effectively the judge says, okay.You know, the children are in need of assistance, and this is what I want to happen with them. Okay? And at that point, you’re on the hook, and you’ll probably be in this process then potentially for I mean, these cases can sometimes go on for years after that. Really? Yeah. Every every six months, give or take, you’re back in court for a status hearing.

Tyler: It’s crazy because that starts really fast. Yep, man. It could just drag on.

Hunter: Mhmm. Forever. Wow. Yeah. Forever. The the legal presumption is that, everybody is supposed to work towards reunification. Okay?

Tyler:  So the end goal is to get the kid back with that family. Right?

Hunter: I will say, on paper, that is the end goal. Okay?But, when you’re dealing with, when you’re dealing with a group of people that may have a different idea of what they think is appropriate and you disagree, right, you could be in it for quite a while sometimes. Okay?

Peter: Yeah. What what’s the, effect that that has on a family constantly going to court or constantly having to be, involved with CPS or the state?I mean, I can’t imagine it’s It’s huge.

Hunter: It’s huge. And I’ll, and I’ll tell you, I think, well, there are a lot of people who wait too long to get an attorney, because, they don’t know what rights they have in negotiating with CPS CPS beforehand, before it turns senate. And there are a lot of people who come to me and say, look, I totally felt bullied by these social workers because I didn’t know my rights, and I felt really threatened. And they said they were gonna take my kids away.Mhmm. You know? Yeah. But the emotional turmoil is is intense. It is emotionally taxing to go to court to have to be put on the stand because as a parent, you you’re potentially a witness. Mhmm. And oftentimes, you are.

Tyler: So what are you trying to tell clients that are trying to ease? I mean, try to ease this thing if, if you can’t. I mean, there’s not much you can do, but, I mean, are there is there something you tell them to kind of ease their pain or at least there’s an there’s a light at the end of the tunnel?

Hunter: Not really. It’s all doom and gloom. The the the thing that I think helps the clients the most is me. You know, I kind of gave you a bit of a procedural overview. I go in-depth with that. I provide a road map to my people, and I said, this is what’s going to happen. This is what they’re gonna prove, and this is in this particular courthouse what we’re dealing with. Alright?

Peter: It’s also extremely fact specific. I mean, obviously, one hundred percent of this is, like, one hundred percent of this hands on One hundred percent. Facts and specific people in the family.

Hunter: Oh, it it the specific people in the family also depends on who the other attorney is.

Tyler: Mhmm. Right.

Hunter: I mean, because you are ultimately it will be me. It will be, you know, a couple of maybe other public defenders, the child’s counsel. Okay? And me working with, effectively the the attorney for the social workers. And so, you know, you’re dealing you’re dealing with a lot of personalities who have different views on what they want to happen. But I think, you know, your question was how do you help help the parents? I mean, you tell them what’s gonna happen, or at least you give them a range of possible outcomes. And oftentimes, walking through that with them and then telling them what I think is going to happen, what I think our best bet is, gives people a lot of peace of mind, effectively just I mean, I I look at them and I say, this isn’t my first rodeo. Here’s I mean, we’re going to the shelter tomorrow morning. You’re gonna lose. Alright? I’m gonna put up a fight. You’re gonna lose. Alright? A real fight starts the day after, okay, with the following subpoenas, okay, with the following discovery issues, alright, with the following follow ups, alright, with the following interviews, okay, with the with the with all the trial prep that we need, okay, etcetera. So Cool. Anyway.

Tyler: Gotcha. So, yeah, I guess from that hearing, kind of what happens next in the process.

Hunter: So, from after the disposition? Yeah. So the so basically, at that point, it’s all follow-ups. So from the court perspective, it’s you have these check-in conferences that usually happen give or take six months afterwards. Okay? It depends on the court calendar. There is a statutorily defined time limit with within which they have to happen, reoccurring, in a reoccurring fashion.

Tyler: But Is that usually in perpetuity every six months?

Hunter: Until until the until the CINA issue is cured. Right? Which how long does it I mean, if you have a child that that has a, you know, a developmental delay, right, that caused them to be CINA Mhmm. How long does it take to get that fixed, you know, till the child’s twenty one? Yeah. I mean Right?

Tyler: A lot of support, a lot of resources you need. Yeah.

Hunter: It may not ever go away. Right? And, and CPS may not ever feel comfortable letting you have your kids again depending on what the allegation is, which is which is terrible. But the the the court side after the disposition hearing is kind of on the back burner. You’re doing this once a six month thing. But for the family, it still can be really intense. Okay? Because you may or may not have your children. Right? All of a sudden, you went from being, you know, the solo parent to I get to see my kids for supervised access once a week at grandma’s house and they’re an hour away. Right? I have to drive two hours to see my kid for ten minutes while somebody else watches. Right? So you have those potential life-altering events. It may or may not affect your job, okay, depending on whether or not you have security clearances. Okay? Because now you have findings of child abuse or neglect potentially. And that and I’m not I’m not even talking about whether or not this intersects with criminal stuff. You know, there’s a whole another appeal process that will resolve from indicated findings of abuse and neglect from a CPS investigation that’s separate than this. That’s happening on the back end, so you have to appeal that as well to go to the Office of Administrative for a separate hearing, totally different than this issue. So, really, I mean, you’re dealing with three different things at the same time.

Tyler: Crazy.

Hunter: But you you know, regardless of what the outcome is, once in terms of the children being removed or not, for the family, you are now working with a social worker according to what the judge said, and that person will be in your home checking up on you potentially if the children are still with you. So you might get moved to, you know, family preservation services or, beyond some kind of I mean, we talked about safety plan, but effectively now it’s a court order. You may even have something like an order for controlling conduct. What does that mean? It means not only is the judge ordering you to do something as the parent. The other family members might be subject to a court order that could subject to them, subject them to imprisonment if they were to not follow through on it.

Tyler: Really?

Hunter: Right? I mean, you may have grandparents who are no longer allowed to have supervised acts unsupervised access to the child, otherwise, the judge will hold them in contempt. I mean so it’s, you know, the the just because you’re not showing up to court doesn’t mean that this is no longer affects your life, and you will feel it you will feel it sometimes every day

Tyler: Wow.

Hunter: Even if you’re not in court after this happens

Peter: So Well, I appreciate you talking about it today, Hunter.

Hunter:  Sure.

Peter: You clearly have, a lot of information and a lot of, experience in incentive cases, and I appreciate you discussing with us that experience..

Hunter: Thanks, It’s been a pleasure. I’m happy to talk.

Tyler: Yeah. I mean, I’m just looking at this from an outside perspective, it is you definitely need that guide or somebody to walk you through the process or what to expect because there’s a lot to unpack here, and there are a lot of potential pitfalls you can see going into the process.

Hunter: It takes it takes a lot of years to be a trial attorney. It takes, a lot of practice, and it would be hard to do that while you are this stressed out in thirty days no matter how smart you are. So it’s it’s a lot, and, it’s it is rewarding to me to be able to shepherd other people through this process and to frankly take care of them, when they need an advocate also. So Thanks for having me.

Tyler: Yeah. Thank you.

Peter: Thank you.